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Skribent: Hanskrist
Emne: Re: Vor Far i himlene
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Når Jesus opfordrer os til at elske Gud med alt, hvad vi har i os, er det, fordi han ved, at hvis vi kunne overgive os til den ubrudte strøm af liv, der løber mellem Gud og os, ville der være en styrke og befrielse, ja en frelse, i det for os. At give sig hen til Gud er ikke en opgåen i Gud, men en bliven sig selv. Det er der, vi finder os selv (Augustin)
Alt det der har jeg jo sagt fra dag 1 her og på religionsdebatten og jeg har endda haft en længere diskurs herom (1)* der viser at jeg ved hvad jeg snakker om.
Ud fra referencer fra Paulus og Albert Schweitzer og Nicolai Berdyaev og Paul Tillich har jeg haft en endda meget grundig diskurs herom.
Så hvorfor skulle jeg falde på røven over noget jeg altid har forstået og hvis du havde læst mig kunne disse tanker ej heller være nye for dig. Men du læser simpelthen ikke hvad jeg skriver nøjagtig som Arne.
Det med nåden har han ikke forstået og jeg gider ikke kaste mig over dette her da denne tråd drejer sig om en helt anden drøftelse.
Det er virkelig fint du er begyndt at læse studere bøger (jeg glæder mig på dine vegne), men det har vi andre måske gjort i så stort omfang i så mange år at vi kan vurdere kritisk hvad det er din Lau Sander Esbensen skriver.
Hvis du vidste hvor mange guldkorn og revolutionerende tanker jeg har disket op med her på Trosfrihed der var slet ingen grund til at gå over å'en efter vand.
Mange Kærlige Hilsner HansKrist
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(1)*:
Paul's mysticism was not like the mysticism elsewhere described as a soul being at one with God. In the mysticism he felt and encouraged, there is no loss of self but an enriching of it; no erase of time or place but a comprehension of how time and place fit within the eternal. A. Schweitzer.
Tillich:
"Ecstasy" ("standing outside one's self)") points to a state of mind which is extraordinary in the sense that the mind transcendens its ordinary situation. Ecstacy is not a negation of reason; it is the state of mind in which reason is beyond itself, that is, beyond its subject-object structure. In being beyond itself reason does not deny itself. "Ecstatic reason" remains reason; it does not receive anything irrational or anti-rational -- which it could not do without self-destruction --- but it transcends the basic condition of finite rationality, the subject-object of structure. This is the state mystics try to reach by ascetic and meditative activities.
Something happens objectively as well as subjectively in every genuine manifestation of the mystery. Only something subjective happens in a state of religious over-ecitement (eller underspændthed i form af alkohol), often artificially produced (stoffer ved overspændthed og alkohol ved underspændthed). Therefore, it has no revelatory power. No new practical or theoretical interpretation of what concerns us (civilisationen) ultimately can be derived from such subjective experiences. Over-exitement is a state of mind which can be comprised completely in psychological terms. Ecstasy transcends the psychological level, although it has a psychological side. It reveals something valid about the relation between the mystery of our being and ourselves. Ecstasy is the form in which that which concerns us unconditionally manifests itself within the whole of our psychological conditions. It appears through them. But it cannot be derived from them.
Paul Tillich på dansk om det samme forhold:
Hvis fornuften gribes af det ubetingede drives den ud over sig selv, men ophører ikke derfor at være fornuft, endelig fornuft. Den ekstatiske erfaring af et ubetinget anliggende tilintetgør ikke fornuftens struktur. Ekstasen fortrænger ikke, men fuldbyrder, hvad fornuften begynder. Fornuften kan kun fuldbyrdes, når den drives ud over sin endeligheds grænser og erfarer det absouttes, det helliges nærværelse. Uden denne erfaring tømmes fornuften for indhold. Paul Tillich.
Fornuften er forhåndsbetingelsen for tro, men i troen rækker fornuften ekstatisk ud over sig selv, deri ligger begges enhed og forskel. Den menneskelige fornuft er endelig. Al kulturvirksomhed, teoretisk så vel som praktisk, bærer dette endelighedspræg, derfor er den aldrig ubetinget anliggende. Men fornuften er ikke bundet til sin endelighed. Den erkender den og hæver sig derved over den. Mennesket erfarer et tilhør til det uendelige, som dog hverken er noget af ham selv eller står i hans magt. Det må gribe ham, og hvis det gør det, bliver det ham et anliggende af uendelig vigtighed. Hvis fornuften gribes af det ubetingede drives den ud over sig selv, men ophører ikke derfor at være fornuft, endelig fornuft. Den ekstatiske erfaring af et ubetinget anliggende tilintetgør ikke fornuftens struktur. Ekstasen fortrænger ikke, men fuldbyrder, hvad fornuften begynder. Fornuften kan kun fuldbyrdes, når den drives ud over sin endeligheds grænser og erfarer det absouttes, det helliges nærværelse. Uden denne erfaring tømmes fornuften for indhold, og ender med at fyldes af irrationelt - dæmonisk - indhold, som sprænger den. Paul Tillich
Nicolai Berdyaev om denne nye Helligåndens epoche
Creativeness is neither permitted nor justified by religion - creativeness is itself religion. Creative experience is a special kind of experience and a special kind of way: the creative ecstasy shatters the whole of man's being - it is an out-breaking into another world. .. The creative experience is unique and self-sufficient - it is not something derivative; its roots go into the deepest depths. .. Creativeness is the final revelation of the Holy Trinity
- its anthropological revelation. This is a consciousness which has never existed in the world - it is being born in our epoch. MCA Nicolai Berdyaev.
The third creative revelation in the Spirit will have no holy scripture; it will be no voice from on high; it will be accomplished in man and in humanity - it is an anthropological revelation, an unveiling of the Christology of man . God awaits the anthropological revelation from man and man cannot expect to have it from God. And one cannot merely wait for the third revelation; man must accomplish it himself, living in the Spirit; accomplish it by a free, creative act. In this act everything transcendent will become immanent. The third anthropological revelation, in which the creative mystery of man will be revealed, is man's final freedom. Man is quite free in the revelation of his creativeness. In this fearful freedom lies all the god-like dignity of man, and his dread responsibility. The virtue of accepting a dangerous position, the virtue of daring to do, is the basic virtue of the creative epoch. MCA Nicolai Berdyaev
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The Mystics taught the mystery of God's birth in man. But there is another mystery, that of man's birth in God. There is a summons, a call in man, for God to be born in him. But there is also God's call that man be born in him. This is the mystery of Christianity, the mystery of Christ.
There must be revealed in me not only God and the Divine but man as well, my human nature --- this means that man must be born in God.
This is the meaning of Christianity, as a religion of Divine-humanity.
A mature courageous consciousness knows God as immanent, near us and within.
Nicolai Berdyaev.
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