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Hej Arne
Du har skrevet:
Eksempelvis mener jeg ikke, der findes historisk belæg, hvad mennesket Jesus angår, der siger ret meget mere om ham end hans navn.
Dette forsøger du at bekræfte ved at springe 99% af artiklen over og fortolke nogle ganske få linjer næsten nederst i den lange tekst. Din fremgangsmåde undrer jeg meget over, hvis du virkelig er interesseret i at diskutere den historiske Jesus.
Hvis jeg må starte med dit udgangspunkt:
Eksempelvis mener jeg ikke, der findes historisk belæg, hvad mennesket Jesus angår, der siger ret meget mere om ham end hans navn.
Nu fra artiklen:
The vast majority of scholars who write on the subject agree that Jesus existed,[5][6][7][8] although scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the biblical accounts, and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.
Hvad der altså er UNIVERSEL enighed om, rækker længere end dit udgangspunkt. Efterhånden viser artiklen hen til grupper af forskere, som også drager konklusioner. Manglen på universel enighed er ikke ensbetydende med, at ingen er enige. Du kan også have "majority of scholars", osv.
Artiklen nævner flere forskellige lærde, der drager flere konklusioner en "hans navn". For blot at nævne nogle af dem:
Louis H. Feldman
Robert E. Van Voorst
John Dominic Crossan
James Dunn
E. P. Sanders
Paula Fredriksen
Geza Vermes
Amy-Jill Levine
Christoph Burchard
Burton Mack
Raymond E. Brown
Robert W. Funk
Craig A. Evans
Michael Grant
Marcus Borg
Gerd Theissen
Annette Merz
Gaetano De Sanctis
Leopold Wenger
James Charlesworth
John P. Meier
Nicholas Perrin
N. T. Wright
Luke Timothy Johnson
Bart Ehrman
Disse lærde kan så være uenige i, hvilke konklusioner der kan drages og hvordan. Men de drager sandelig flere konklusioner end "hans navn".
Jeg er interesseret i at diskutere, hvilke konklusioner, der er tale om, og hvordan de kan drages. Der har også være en udvikling i, hvordan man undersøger "den historiske Jesus". Og det leder mig til det, du her siger, at du "hæfter dig ved" (vel at mærke ved at springe næsten hele artiklen over!):
It is generally difficult for any scholar to construct a portrait of Jesus that can be considered historically valid beyond the basic elements of his life.[201][202] On the other hand, scholars such as N. T. Wright and Luke Timothy Johnson argue that the image of Jesus presented in the gospels is largely accurate, and that dissenting scholars are simply too cautious about what we can claim to know about the ancient era.[167]
Du påstår nu:
Det forstår jeg sådan, at de to nævnte humanistiske videnskabsmænd - åbenbart i modsætning til mange andre - hævder at Bibelens beskrivelse af Jesus er troværdig.
Jeg må lede din opmærksom hen på det, du citerer. Faktisk er det sådan, at der står "...scholars SUCH AS...". Min fremhævning. Der er altså tale om flere end "de to nævnte humanistiske videnskabsmænd", som du siger. Omvendt viser fodnoten i dit citat hen til, at der netop er tale om to kritikere af disse "scholars such as"!
Ydermere: Hvis du læser hele afsnittet om "Criticism of Jesus research methods", hvor du straks er sprunget ned, ladende de 99% af artiklen bag dig, vil du finde i tre af de fire punkter, at der afsluttes med en kritik af kritikken. F.eks. fra Myth theory: "Most scholars believe that the Christ myth theory has been refuted, and that Jesus did exist as a historical figure."
På samme vis fra dit eget citat: "...and that dissenting scholars are simply too cautious about what we can claim to know about the ancient era." Dette er jo netop fra "the third quest".
Contemporary scholarship, representing the "third quest," places Jesus firmly in the Jewish tradition.
Og hvis du søger på "third quest" i artiklen, vil du - selvfølgelig - også finde flere end "de to", som du siger.
Jeg sidder tilbage med oplevelsen af, at du er mest interesseret i at bekræfte din position, at myter er nok for dig, at det ikke er muligt at vide noget, og at vi mennesker er ubetydelige. Og det er du selvfølgelig i din gode ret til. Hvis du derimod er interesseret i at diskutere den historiske Jesus, deltager jeg gerne i det.
Her er lidt ekstra, som du er sprunget let hen over:
In addition to the two historical elements of baptism and crucifixion, scholars attribute varying levels of certainty to various other aspects of the life of Jesus, although there is no universal agreement among scholars on these items. Amy-Jill Levine has stated that "there is a consensus of sorts on the basic outline of Jesus' life. Most scholars agree that Jesus was baptised by John, debated with fellow Jews on how best to live according to God’s will, engaged in healings and exorcisms, taught in parables, gathered male and female followers in Galilee, went to Jerusalem, and was crucified by Roman soldiers during the governorship of Pontius Pilate (26-36 CE)."
In addition various scholars have proposed that:
An approximate chronology of Jesus can be estimated from non-Christian sources, and confirmed by correlating them with New Testament accounts.
Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born between 7 and 2 BC and died 30–36 AD.
Jesus lived only in Galilee and Judea, and never travelled or studied outside Galilee and Judea.
Jesus spoke Aramaic and may have also spoken Hebrew and Greek. James D. G. Dunn states that there is "substantial consensus" that Jesus gave his teachings in Aramaic, although the Galilean dialect of Aramaic was clearly distinguishable from the Judean dialect.
Claims about the appearance or ethnicity of Jesus are mostly subjective, based on cultural stereotypes and societal trends rather than on scientific analysis.
The baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist can be dated approximately from Josephus' references (Antiquities 18.5.2) to a date before AD 28-35.
The main topic of his teaching was the Kingdom of God, and he presented this teaching in parables that were surprising and sometimes confounding.
Jesus taught an ethic of forgiveness, as expressed in aphorisms such as "turn the other cheek" or "go the extra mile."
Jesus caused a controversy at the Temple.
The date of the crucifixion of Jesus was earlier than 36 AD, based on the dates of the prefecture of Pontius Pilate who was governor of Roman Judea from 26 AD until 36 AD.
Kærlig hilsen
Thomas
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