Kære Jan, Arne og Hanskrist
Jan, du skriver:
Det var underlagt død og elendighed fra begyndelsen.
Bingo!
Det var også min tanke for nogle år siden. Evolutionen. Alle de levende væsner. Lidelse og kamp. Kamp og lidelse. Jeg så en video med to dyr, der sloges, og det smertede mig at se lidelsen hos det dyr, som blev overvundet.
Lidelse på lidelse overalt. Det ser ud til, at der altid har været lidelse. Hvor passer Faldet ind med det?
Kan vi forklare det hele uden et fald? Jeg har svært ved at se det. For hvorfor skulle Gud skabe en mørkeverden? Det giver da ikke nogen mening? Som sådan burde Gud jo skabe en lysverden.
Jeg er fuldstændig enig. Disse tanker kommer fra dit hjerte. Og de giver mening. Men det betyder måske så også, at der må være et fald.
Og der er en løsning, der giver god mening.
The atemporal Fall. The meta-historical Fall.The fall of rational creation and the conquest of the cosmos by death is something that appears to us nowhere within the course of nature or history; it comes from before and beyond both. We cannot search it out within the closed totality of the damaged world because it belongs to another frame of time, another kind of time, one more real than the time of death. ...It may seem a fabulous claim that we exist in the long grim aftermath of a primeval catastrophe—that this is a broken and wounded world, that cosmic time is a phantom of true time, that we live in an umbratile interval between creation in its fullness and the nothingness from which it was called, and that the universe languishes in bondage to the "powers" and "principalities" of this age, which never cease in their enmity toward the kingdom of God—but it is not a claim that Christians are free to surrender.
David Bentley Hart (wikidpedia; The Doors of the Sea (o.a.))Det ser ud til, at der er flere, der deler dette syn om et atemporal Fall. Bl.a.
HansKrists Nikolai Berdyaev. Men også Sergei Bulgakov. Og: Origen, Gregory of Nazianzus, Gregory of Nyssa, Evagrius Ponticus, and Maximus the Confessor. Det er sådan, jeg forstår det. Man kan let foretage en søgning på det på nettet og læse om det.
De næste tre
citater i kursiv er af Charles Andrew Gottshall herfra:
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2017/05/01/sergius-b...gical-solution/Faldet sker på grænsen mellem evighed og tid, her hvor skabelsen modtager sig selv aktivt:
When God called all things forth from nothingness the world received itself actively or with active receptivity. The world determined itself in relation to the gift of its own being, and without this response to the Creator, the world would not exist. This determination is the condition of creation’s incarnation in time, and thus can only take place on the border between eternity and time, in a liminal supra-temporality. This is the “frame of time” in which the fall occurs, the “event” in which becoming comes to be in a false and fleshly manner.Menneskeheden - skabt i Guds billede - står på tærsklen mellem Skaberen og skabelsen, som et spejl ment til at reflektere Guds lys ind i verden. Vil spejlet reflektere Guds lys eller vende sig mod skabelsen helt?
Having its roots in both eternity and time, spirituality and physicality (unlike the angels), there lies within humanity the possibility of deception, the lure of looking to the lower world in seeking to satisfy its nature. Illusion can arise within an untested humanity not knowing how to stand in both worlds at once, the prospect of a choice wherein the divine summons to life hearkens unto humanity as an inner call pulling its spiritual principle upward in the direction of the higher world, as a principle of unity for the lower, while its physical principle pulls its gazes downward, desirous of the fruit of “the tree of knowledge of good and evil.” Upon this threshold of time and two worlds the destiny of humanity and nature is determined. “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil (Deut. 30:15).” In this state at the foundation of creation, all humanity is present as a multi-unity, as Adam, the all-human.Evolution og menneskekroppen:
Bereft of its glory and sophianicity the world became a wilderness for humanity, a place of spiritual exile where even God and the fall can be doubted; creation as a region of life and light became a realm of moral depravity and physical mortality. Instead of obtaining its body in spiritual manner from nature by subduing the creative principles of the world soul, by exercising dominion over nature, humanity became enslaved to its lower principle and thus emerged within the evolutionary process as natural, fleshly humanity in an un-spiritual state.Håber jeg har forstået det nogenlunde
Kh Thomas
Svar
Citer
Det sætter tænkeren igang 
Måske går jeg ind i politik om nogle år, for der er brug for andre boller på suppen...
